Last week I incorrectly labeled the post as Part 3 when in fact it was Part 4, which makes this Part 5 of the read of The Great Hunt. Somehow I can’t believe it’s been five weeks already!
After how dense the last recap and analysis was, I’ve decided to slow it down a bit and just focus on one chapter this week—the very important Chapter 8: “The Dragon Reborn.” I suppose, given the title, I should have expected the way that the chapter unfolded, but Jordan actually surprised me here. I really thought that there would be more of a slow burn for Rand’s realizations of himself over the course of the book; granted, just because he’s been told some things doesn’t mean there isn’t a lot to struggle with before he gets to a place where he might feel comfortable accepting his true identity.
Rand walks through the keep with Lan, growing more and more tense as they go. He is startled by a soldier crying out to them, “Tai’shar Malkier! Tai’shar Manetheren!” (True blood of Malkier! True blood of Manetheren!) as they pass, and has to remind himself that the people of Shienar know the story of Manetheren and there is nothing alarming in the recognition. As they approach the women’s apartments, Lan suddenly orders him into one of the movements from their training, “Cat Crosses the Courtyard,” which gives Rand an easy, confident strut as they come up before the women watching the entry. They are greeted formally and given two women to escort them to the Amyrlin’s chamber, despite Rand’s fear that they would be turned away as soon as the women saw that they were carrying swords.
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The Great Hunt
They are brought before Leane and two other Aes Sedai Rand recognizes from his race through the hall on his way to rescue Egwene. Leane greets Lan without addressing Rand, calling him a young lion and remarking that if a Green saw him she would bond him immediately. But Lan gave Rand instructions on how to approach this encounter and he replies formally that he has come to his audience with the Amyrlin as he was summoned to do. After a moment Rand is let in, but Leane bars Lan from entering with him.
Rand is greeted by the Amyrlin, Moiraine, and Verin, and he offers a formal greeting, kneeling before the Amyrlin and refusing a seat when offered. The Amyrlin remarks that things will be difficult enough without teaching Rand to behave like a Warder; Moiraine replies that Lan has spent a lot of time with all the boys, but especially with Rand since he carries a sword. When the Amyrlin asks how Rand came by the Heron-marked blade, Moiraine surprises Rand by knowing Tam’s whole story.
“Tam al’Thor left the Two Rivers as a boy, Mother. He joined the army of Illian, and served in the Whitecloak War and the last two wars with Tear. In time he rose to be a blademaster and the Second Captain of the Companions. After the Aiel War, Tam al’Thor returned to the Two Rivers with a wife from Caemlyn and an infant boy. It would have saved much, had I known this earlier, but I know it now.”
The Amyrlin explains to Rand the Ingtar is to be sent to find the Horn, and that Mat (and most likely Perrin) will be sent along as well, so that Mat can find the dagger before being separated from it kills him. She asks Rand if he would like to accompany them. Rand is alarmed by the news that Mat is dying, and surprised by the fact that the Amyrlin is essentially telling him that he can do what he wants. But he is also suspicious that the Aes Sedai are trying to push him in a certain direction, and resolves to choose another, if he can. But Mat is in trouble, so he decides to travel with Ingtar.
With that question addressed, the Amyrlin comes to the point of Rand’s channeling. He reminds her and Moiriane that he wants to stop, but the Aes Sedai explain that, while anyone who could have taught Rand to master his abilities is dead, if he cannot learn to control them he will die as well, in time. Rand, flustered and fearful, calls up the void in his mind, imagining putting his fears into the single flame until he has regained control of himself and can speak calmly. The Amyrlin is surprised by this trick, and asks Moiriane if Lan taught it to him, but Moiraine explains that it is a skill Rand learned from Tam. When Rand asks why he isn’t going to be gentled, he is given a simple, terrible answer.
The Amyrlin Seat looked him straight in the eye and said, “Because you are the Dragon Reborn.” The void rocked. The world rocked. Everything seemed to spin around him. He concentrated on nothing, and the emptiness returned, the world steadied. “No, Mother. I can channel, the Light help me, but I am not Raolin Darksbane, nor Guaire Amalasan, nor Yurian Stonebow. You can gentle me, or kill me, or let me go, but I will not be a tame false Dragon on a Tar Valon leash.”
He heard Verin gasp, and the Amyrlin’s eyes widened, a gaze as hard as blue rock. It did not affect him; it slid off the void within.
The Amyrlin demands where he learned those names, who told him that Tar Valon controlled false dragons, and Rand answers that it was Thom Merrilin. The Amyrlin tells him that he is not a false dragon, but the true Dragon Reborn. The Moiraine tells a story, and as she sets the scene, Rand realizes that some of the historic details that she is describing fit with those that Tam mentioned during his fevered ramblings after the Trolloc attack. Moiraine describes how she and the Amyrlin, then just young Accepted in the Aes Sedai, were in the company of the then Amyrlin, along with her Keeper of the Chronicles, Gitara Moroso. Moiraine tells Rand about the The Karaethon Cycle: the Prophecies of the Dragon which said that Dragon would be reborn on Dragonmount, the mountain that was created when he killed himself during the Breaking of the World. That night when they were attending the Amyrlin and hearing the news of the fighting, Gitara, who had the power Foretelling, suddenly stood up, rigid, and announced that the Dragon had been born again, that she could feel him taking his first breaths on the slopes of Dragonmount, and then she died.
Rand tries not to accept the truth, but he keeps hearing Tam’s fevered description of finding a newborn baby on the slopes of the mountain. Moiraine continues to explain how the then Amyrlin swore them to secrecy and sent them to search for the child, looking for years, pouring over the Prophecies to find clues to the child’s identity. Eventually a prophecy that said that the Dragon would be of the ancient blood and raised by the old blood led Moiraine to the Two Rivers, where the blood of Manetheren was still strong and she found three boys who were named within weeks of the battle of Dragonmount. And one of them, Rand, can channel.
Rand is overcome, the void shattered, and he falls to his knees, desperately thinking that this is a trick, that it’s being said to manipulate them in some way.
“I will not be used by you.” [he says.]
“An anchor is not demeaned by being used to hold a boat,” the Amyrlin said. “You were made for a purpose, Rand al’Thor. ‘When the winds of Tarmon Gai’don scour the earth, he will face the Shadow and bring forth Light again in the world.’ The Prophecies must be fulfilled, or the Dark One will break free and remake the world in his image. The Last Battle is coming, and you were born to unite mankind and lead them against the Dark One.”
Rand insists that Ba’alzamon is dead, and the Amyrlin tells him that he’s a fool if he believes it. She tells him that facing the Dark One is his destiny, reminding Rand of the time Ba’alzamon said almost the same thing to him. Overwhelmed, Rand realizes that he’s crouching, cowering before the three Aes Sedai, and although he can’t refind the void, he forces himself to get to his feet. He asks what they are going to do with him, and is surprised that the answer is nothing. The Amyrlin tells him that both Perrin and Mat will have similar interviews, and that she has not marked him out in any way; other than the three women in the room, none of the Aes Sedai know any more than perhaps that he is ta’veren.
“The Prophecies must be fulfilled. We let you walk free, knowing what you are, because otherwise the world we know will die, and the Dark One will cover the earth with fire and death. Mark me, not all Aes Sedai feel the same. There are some here in Fal Dara who would strike you down if they knew a tenth of what you are, and feel no more remorse than for gutting a fish. But then, there are men who’ve no doubt laughed with you who would do the same, if they knew. Have a care, Rand al’Thor, Dragon Reborn.”
Rand finds himself feeling cold, sustained only by his anger, and formally asks if he can depart. The Amyrlin gives him permission, and then Rand tells them again that he will not be used, before leaving.
When Rand is gone, the three Aes Sedai briefly discuss their discomfort with what they have done, their worry over Rand’s strength and stubbornness, but agree that it was what had to be done, that the Prophecies have to be fulfilled.
Meanwhile, Nynaeve is contemplating her skill in listening to the wind; she can feel a storm coming, but it is not like her usual weather sense, there is something different and more foreboding in it. Catching sight of Rand striding through the halls with an escort of women, she realizes that any storm would have him at the center, and hurries to follow, but loses him in the corridors. The gossip of the women she passes lets her know that Rand has just seen the the Amyrlin and that he left in a hurry; she brushes away questions and tries to find Rand, consumed with worry for his safety and upbraiding herself that, as his Wisdom, she did not do more to ensure his protection.
But Nynaeve is aware that she may no longer be a Wisdom, that she has abandoned Emond’s Field and may never return to it. She struggles with this doubt for a while, then comes upon Lan, standing and looking out into the courtyard through an arrowslit. She thinks about how foolish her feelings for him are, mentally comparing herself to a lovesick girl, and trying to talk herself out of her feelings by finding flaws with him, such as his age and height. She thinks that a disposed king would not want a village woman anyway that he is bonded to another, but thinking of Moiraine only makes Nynaeve angry, knowing that the woman she dislikes so heavily has what Nynaeve most wants.
Lan notices her and before she can go, tell her that he has been wanting to talk to her. They briefly rehash the romantic conversation they once had, Nynaeve stubbornly reframing it to save her own pride.
“We said all we need to say long ago, you and I. I shamed myself—which I will not do again—and you told me to go away.”
“I never said—” He took a deep breath. “I told you I had nothing to offer for brideprice but widow’s clothes. Not a gift any man could give a woman. Not a man who can call himself a man.”
“I understand,” she said coolly. “In any case, a king does not give gifts to village women. And this village woman would not take them. Have you seen Rand? I need to talk to him. He was to see the Amyrlin. Do you know what she wanted with him?”
His eyes blazed like blue ice in the sun. She stiffened her legs to keep from stepping back, and met him glare for glare.
“The Dark One take Rand al’Thor and the Amyrlin Seat both,” he grated, pressing something into her hand. “I will make you a gift and you will take it if I have to chain it around your neck.”
He gives Nynaeve a gift of a signet ring of the Malkieri kings, insisting that she take it and either keep it or throw it away, as he has no use for it. He tells her also that showing it to someone from the Borderlands or to a Warder will grant her immediate help, and calls her mashiarai, meaning “beloved of heart and soul” but also “love lost.”
Moiraine startles Nynaeve from her musings, and Nynaeve asks what has happened to Rand. But Moiraine says only that ta’veren are so rare that the Amyrlin would not pass up a meeting with them. Nynaeve says that she should have taken the boys away from Moiraine when she could, but Moiraine reminds her that she could not do that, at least for one of them, and suggests that then Egwene would be forced to go to Tar Valon alone. And if Nynaeve doesn’t get teaching to use her power, she will never be able to use it against Moraine.
Nynaeve is surprised that Morinae knows her thoughts so intimately, and asks why Moiriane didn’t tell the Amyrlin about Rand’s ability and have him gentled; Moiraine deflects, confident that Nynaeve will remain dedicated to traveling to Tar Valon. Still seething, Nynaeve silently promises that she will learn, that she will put Moiraine down in revenge for everything she has done, to Mat and Perrin, to Egwene, to Rand… and to Nynaeve.
Later, Nynaeve comes to check it Egwene is done packing, and the two speak briefly about how it will be nice to be able to have private bathing chambers again, and Egwene muses on how Nynaeve is a Wisdom, but acts just like any other girl when she is in love, and how foolish it is that Lan doesn’t have “enough sense” to commit to her when they both so clearly want it. Nynaeve tells Egwene that it would be better for her not to call Nynaeve “Wisdom” anymore; after all they will just be two women in Tar Valon, and they may never see home again.
Just then one of Amalisa’s ladies arrives at Egwene’s door to say that Rand is causing an uproar, trying to get into the women’s apartments and wearing his sword again. Egwene goes down to see him, and they talk briefly about whether or not Egwene is planning to wed Rand. She finds him at the entrance making a fuss because he is afraid that he won’t get to see Egwene before he departs with Ingtar’s party, and she takes him off to walk and speak alone.
Egwene asks if the Amyrlin hurt him, Rand replies that she did not, but doesn’t tell Egwene anything about the encounter other than that the Amyrlin wanted to see ta’veren. He tells her they probably will never see her again, that he fears if they ever do meet she will want to gentle him. She promises to find a way to help him, and they embrace, and Egwene tells him to take care of himself. She thinks that she hears him say “I love you” before he hurries away.
As I mentioned last week, this is the chapter that made me miss my stop on the subway. Obviously the most exciting bit to read was the moment that Rand learns the truth about himself and his subsequent emotional struggle in the face of the Aes Sedai delivering it to him. Rand’s journey in this book will be very different from what I expected, since he has learned that he is the Dragon earlier than I thought he would. However, once I stopped frantically turning pages and stopped to really consider everything, I realized there is a lot of world building snuck into this chapter, as well as some good character work for people besides Rand.
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The Ruin of Kings
One of the things we learned more about in this chapter is the culture of the Sheinarans, and their weird gender dynamics. At first I thought that the ladies guarding the entrance to the women’s apartments were there because of the attack on the keep, but it actually seems to be something that is always in practice. This gendered separation of housing seems at odds with some of the other things we know about Sheinaran tradition, such as how men and women of all stations are perfectly comfortable with communal bathing. However, after Agelmar’s discussion with Rand over the rules and customs around requesting entrance or sending a message to a woman in her apartments, it appears to have more to do with control than with some kind of social propriety. As with all the other cultures we have encountered this far (except maybe the Aiel?) there isn’t much gender equality in the world of The Wheel of Time; the division of duties and societal roles tend to fall along old-fashioned lines that western readers would find familiar; women in dresses as homemakers and healers, men as warriors and laborers, the only real gender equality coming from the position of women of noble birth, such as Queen Morgause coming from a matriarchal line of monarchs. Especially in Sheinar, where fighting is the order of life, men have much more command and control overall. Perhaps if Amalisa had been the first born and Agelmar was younger than her, she would be Lady of Fal Dara over her brother, but even then his command of the armies would elevate him above her in many ways. So perhaps the weirdness of the women’s apartments is a sort of societal concession; since women have less control over all, it is custom to grant them complete autonomy over this one area, even if, as Kajin points out, the men find their rules foolish.
The whole conversation between Nynaeve and the lady, Nisura, who fetches her for Rand is also pretty weird. I suppose one might put down the sense of men being “half-animals” to the fact that all the men of Sheinar spend most of their lives with swords in their hands, but it’s still discomfiting the way that the Shienaran women say that husbands have to be “housebroken,” as though they’re pets and not adult human beings. It isn’t that different from the way Nynaeve, Egwene, and the women’s council of the Two Rivers talk about men, and not that different than the people of our world often talk about the opposite gender, especially historically (women are from mars, men are from venus and all that malarkey) but that whole conversation, which lasts more than a whole page, just seems so silly and pointless.
Continuing on with the theme of strange gender dynamics, Leane is a bit… frisky, isn’t she? She can’t seem to pass up the opportunity to talk about handsome young men and what a Green would do to them, although I think it’s really what she would like to do to them. It was kind of cute the first time with Perrin but now it’s getting off-putting. Especially “Greens like to bond them young.” Brr. I think Leane might be repressing some desires and it’s coming out in a creepy way. It’s a good thing Lan has prepared Rand on how to conduct himself and things to say, or Rand would be wishing for Perrin to tell him how to talk to ladies again.
And then there is the audience between the Amyrlin and her allies and Rand al’Thor, the Dragon Reborn. I guess this was their new (new) plan, after the Horn was stolen, and I wonder how that discussion worked, and how Verin convinced Moiraine and the Amyrlin that she was worth trusting and bringing in on their plots. Her calm reason and logic? Her (probably feigned) lack of awareness of the real world? Something else? Moiraine did tell the Amyrlin that Rand was ta’veren, and therefore all their plans were subject to disruption, so perhaps they already had a backup in mind, but I wonder what that conversation was like as they decided that, now that the Horn was gone and they couldn’t trick him into going to Illian, they might as well just tell him the whole truth.
I’ve complained before about the gender dynamics of The Wheel of Time and, most specifically, about the black and white gendered division of the One Power, so I was really excited about one particular gem from Verin in this chapter. After Moiraine repeats her adage explaining how women cannot teach men to channel—the old “a bird cannot teach a fish to fly, a fish can’t teach teach a bird to swim,”—Verin interrupts with what appears to be a random thought.
“I have always thought that was a bad saying,” Verin said suddenly. “There are birds that dive and swim. And in the Sea of Storms are fish that fly, with long fins that stretch out as wide as your outstretched arms, and beaks like swords that can pierce….”
Moiraine and the Amyrlin appear put off by this observation, or at least don’t approve of this divergence from the point, but I was standing on the sidelines with pompoms cheering. Go Verin, burn gender essentialism to the ground! They may say the Browns are more disconnected from the world, but from where I’m sitting Verin seems to be the only one who can really think outside of the box. And that is probably going to be a valuable thing, going forward, given the paradox of needing the Dragon to channel but knowing that the channeling will destroy him. (And maybe the world? I’m still a bit unclear on that part.)
I found the Amyrlin’s reply to Rand’s insistence that he would not be used extremely unsatisfying, which I am sure is what Jordan intended. Our hero is being asked to grapple with a very painful reality, which is that being the Chosen One is basically one of the worst fates that could be visited on a man. The Amyrlin is perfectly aware of how terrible a burden this will be, and even if she did feel sympathy for Rand, she certainly wouldn’t show it. But as a reader, the reply of “An anchor is not demeaned by being used to hold a boat” was just devastating. I was a little surprised we weren’t given a description of how the comment made Rand feel—perhaps he was too overwhelmed to process individual reactions—but then I realized that I didn’t need the explanation, because my own emotional reaction was more than enough. The Amrylin isn’t telling Rand he’s more than a tool, she is telling him that this is exactly what he is, merely insisting that it is not an insult to be used. It’s odd and yet fitting, I think, to realize that the Chosen One of a story is both the most important and powerful, and yet the least in control or given to have a real life. And I expect that was the message Jordan was trying to convey in this chapter.
It was great to finally get the full story behind how Moiraine (and the Amyrlin) was put on the path of looking for the Dragon Reborn in the first place. One assumes when we meet her in in the beginning that her solitary quest originated because she’s smarter or more insightful or more dedicated than her counterparts, much like Gandalf in comparison to the other Maiar. But in keeping with the mythology of the world, we now see that it was some kind of fate—i.e. the Pattern—that led only Moiraine Damodred and Siuan Sanche to hear the Foretelling of Rand’s birth. Not to say that this discounts Moiraine as smarter, more intuitive, or more dedicated; after all, the Wheel chose her for this task for a reason.
After being so great with Rand in the beginning of this chapter, Lan really annoyed me with the way he handled his gift to Nynaeve. For all that Nynaeve can be over-proud, stubborn, and easily angered, everything she says to him is so clearly intended to protect her heart, and Lan, as the one who refused her advances, holds all the power in the encounter. He knows she’s hurting, but he treats her hurt roughly, stating angrily that he will force her to accept a gift that she does not want, then dismissing its importance by saying that he has no use for it, then declaring that, despite the fact that he cannot be with her, he will come to her aid no matter what if the ring is sent to him. He’s clearly trying to assuage his own feelings with some sort of compromise, but he’s unwilling to see that this may just cause her more pain. Still, I have a feeling that ring is going to be very important before this story is through.
In contrast to Lan not understanding Nynaeve’s feelings and Nynaeve projecting all her pain and anger onto Moiraine for no real reason, Rand and Egwene are finally handling their feelings for each other like adults. They both realize that their paths are diverting, and don’t try to diminish or hide their own feelings because of it. Rand is a little afraid of Egwene becoming an Aes Sedai and turning on him, but ultimately, neither blames the other for things they cannot control, and that parting was beautifully bittersweet. I was proud of both of them.
We get a bit of a break next week, with some traveling and some hunting, a few interesting new faces, and, to my great delight, we get a return visit from Bayle Domon of the Spray. Tune in next week for Chapters 9 and 10, and in the meantime, remember to white-out your spoilers and I will see you down in the comments!
If Sylas Barrett lived in an epic fantasy, he wouldn’t be the chosen one. He’d probably be the Sam or the Perrin.
“If Sylas Barrett lived in an epic fantasy, he wouldn’t be the chosen one. He’d probably be the Sam or the Perrin.”
Samwise Gamgee was bad-ass. Just saying.
Safe to say Verin goes waaaaaaaay outside the box. She’s great throughout.
Re: the importance of Lan’s ring.
Very important. Don’t hold your breath though.
*cackles madly*
You want to talk about gender dynamics, this chapter has one of my favorite examples of the way Jordan uses gender in WoT. You take the scene where you have a young person, still just a teenager, brought before arguably the most powerful politician in the world. The teenager tries to conduct themselves in a way they see to be proper to help give them resolve and strength and the politician and their compatriots are instantly dismissive of the acts of what they view to be the opposite genders “silly ways” and talk amongst themselves about how useful their own attendants of that gender are and how sometimes you just have to put up with their silliness while they’re around.
The whole thing continues on like this and there are tons of people who are able to explain everything that is going on far better than I can, but the point is if the Aes Sedai treatment of Rand in this scene pisses you off then gender flip the characters and see how it reads to you now.
The point is anything involving gender dynamics in WoT is absolutely on purpose.
Another great read!
Nice analysis, as always.
– You need more information about Leane’s place of origin to understand her perspectives and commentary. She may make more sense to you later in the books.
– You are being a bit tough on Lan. He’s given up his kingship to partner as a Warder with Moiraine to dedicate his life to fighting the Shadow and, in so doing, give up all of his own selfish desires….and then Nynaeve shows up, and puts at risk all of his long-sworn oaths. He’s not rejecting her cavalierly; he can’t care for her the way that she wants and deserves without violating his oaths. So, he does what he thinks he can – he acknowledges his feelings for her and gives her “the” signet ring – not “a” signet ring, as you stated in the text.
As @5 stated, Leane makes a lot more sense when you learn more of her homeland. Which is true of all the characters. Idiosyncrasies are suddenly understandable. Like Moiraine playing her cards so close to the vest. Or Siuan’s incessant fish metaphors. It’s one of the most enjoyable parts of Jordan’s world building.
Rand and Egwene’s are each other’s first love. They fully expected to marry someday and live a normal Two Rivers type life. Now both are facing the fact that that is not going to happen, the Creator only knows what’s going to happen to them but odds are they will never be together as they expected and wanted to be. At this point in time Egwene is promising herself and Rand that she will somehow find a way to save him, which is an interesting reversal, while he has decided to get out of her life altogether to protect her.
Lan is being incredibly annoying, there is nothing more irritating and offensive than having relationship decisions be made for you on the ground you don’t know what’s good for you. Lan is going to find out he’s pulled that on the wrong woman.
Rand is not insulting Egwene in that way. Theirs is a mutual decision made for reasons both understand and accept.
I think you’ve missed quite a bit. There is far more gender equality in WOT than in similar fantasy worlds, recent modern fantasy excepted. There’s a Woman’s Circle in the village along with the Village Council, a Wisdom along with a Mayor, etc. Women have far more authority than usual and it is men that labor under the burden of ‘original sin,’ as it were, with the Breaking and taint madness. One of the underlying themes of the story is about role reversal, though it is arguable how well that comes across. Much of the disparaging remarks the women make to each other about men is a bit of a reverse of what women have had said about them in similar stories, entertainment and real life by men.
As for Lan, yeah well dealing with that bundle of irrationality and pride that is Nyneave really doesn’t give you a lot of room to maneuver smoothly.
Good reread and fun analysis. But… I feel like you missed which gender holds the power. You interpret the women controlling their apartments as a concession by the men, but based on which gender is in power throughout WoT I’m confident that the women have insisted on it as a way to keep the “distasteful” reminders of the constant fighting out of at least one area. Very slight spoiler if you don’t want to read it, but really just a discussion about cultures in general in WoT. //In almost every culture in WoT, even some of those that have a king or other male leadership you find women holding most power, so if you find an interesting split it was most likely imposed by them. In fact, I would say you should watch for which cultures are more geared toward men and compare that to how that culture views the one power/Aes Sedai.// But, as you have noted, both sides are equally guilty of assuming the other gender’s rules or mannerisms are “silly”.
Verin bears a close watch. *Love* her character.
I’ve always had trouble understanding the frequent mentions of “old blood” and “ancient blood”, and how the old blood is strong in the Two Rivers. They make it sound like some peoples have many generations of ancestors while most other peoples have just sort of sprouted from the ground relatively recently, but nothing else indicates that the characters believe anything like that.
Obviously every human has ancestors all the way back to the origin of life (whether it happened by evolution or creation), so everybody’s “blood” is equally old. And if time is a wheel, then it makes no sense to talk about how old the “blood” is, because its age wraps around. So what do they actually mean when they talk about “old blood”?
@12 I think it refers to how much interbreeding there is with outsiders. So many people in the Two Rivers can trace almost all of their ancestry to Manetheren whereas other areas have a much broader ancestral pool.
@12: It really is simple. “The blood” (NOT “The Blood” from later books!) is a reference to lack of genetic diversity. The “old blood” Rand was raised among would be the people of Manethren, who settled in the same area and barely intermarried outside of that pool. The lack of excessive forks in the family trees concentrates the blood and allows lineages to have major effects on your power and influence in life. (If blood really worked like that, the Amish would rule the world.)
The “ancient blood” would be another cultural pool with little or no forking. //The Aiel have kept themselves apart for two millennia, hardly entertaining the idea that outsiders had actual worth, let alone intermarrying. Tigraine was only accepted by the Aiel because the Wise Ones ordered them to.// Each of those details is spread out over A LOT of reading, and sets Rand up to do some major questioning about certain relationships.
@12 For lack of a better phrase, racial purity. But, I think, within the realm of scifi/ff writing, old blood connotates innate nobility, a deeper well, of…________. In the context of the Wheel, and threads in a pattern metaphor, being of the old blood might mean your thread is made of sterner stuff.
I really enjoy reading your synopsis of the chapters, book 2 is one of my favorite in the epic, and I am excited to continue reading your opinions and reactions to the twists and turns that the Pattern spins out for the reader. Thank you for writing these passages they are entertaining to read and it feels like I am reading these books for the first time all over again. Can’t wait for Part 6 or 5 or whatever number you decide to call it next week!! Lol.
@15 One of the interesting aspects is that there is very little racism between different cultures based on ethnicity. There is some preconceptions about different cultures (such as people from Cairhien often have alterior motives). There is very little racism based on appearance of different cultures.
Jordan mentions skin tone but he never focuses on it and sometimes it even slips you by. Examples from later in the series is Alanna and Rahvin who both have a dark skin tone but that’s often missed by the readers since it’s mentioned once or twice in passing. The reader himself/herself defaults to what they think it is since they often miss those times when it’s mentioned. Robert Jordan focused much more on how clothes looked since that has a much bigger role for the society in Randland.
And, at the same time, Rand is not denying that he is a tool either. His emphasis seems to be that he won’t be her tool. That’s the part that Siuan missed, and Moiraine as well. (they had a similar conversation in the last book , where Moiraine said “a tool is not demeaned for being used for its purpose”.) They both (at least at this point) assume that their’s is the hand meant to wield the Dragon Reborn. The arrogance in Siuan’s statement is far more astounding than its callousness.
Geesh. This is why I said in the last book that it was great that we got the conversation from Rand’s POV instead of Nynaeve. This is what happens with Nynaeve’s POVs. They suck you in to her viewpoint. Please imagine for a moment, that you are Lan. A person who is, quite literally, bonded magically to another human being. I know that we don’t know all that much about the bond yet, but he quite literally can’t give her what she wants without forswearing himself, which in his culture has other implications. Except, he wants it too. He’s torn, and it comes across beautifully in this scene. There’s more of this to come, and eventually, you’ll get Moiraine’s thoughts on the matter. It might help make you less annoyed by this scene.
And what he’s saying about the ring goes straight to the heart of who Lan is. He’s a king, but he’s not. His heritage is worthless, but its the most important thing in the world to him, its the core of what drives him. He’s metaphorically giving her Malkier. Its the most important possession he owns, but also the least valuable, because it doesn’t exist. Its a kingdom that no longer exists. He’s not being callous. Maybe thoughtless for how Nynaeve might interpret what he’s saying, but he’s speaking completely from the heart. So, try to unpack that last part of your quote with the thought that doing so might require him to foreswear a magically bonded oath, or betray someone else to do so, and he is committing to do it no matter what. He’s knowingly undermining his entire self-construct in this scene. He’s committing to something that will almost assuredly require him to go against another commitment of equal value.
If “old blood” means racial purity, then Rand isn’t “of the ancient blood” at all. Being half Aiel and half Andoran nobility, his blood would be as “young” as it could possibly be.
(I’m trying out a new way of hiding spoilers that should make it more obvious that there is hidden text there. Can you all read the previous paragraph by selecting it?)
Speaking of the old blood, and getting off topic (it’s something I’ve always wondered, //is Mat the only character from the Two Rivers in the series who speaks the old tongue because of the “old blood” coming through? I know that in tEotW, Egwene said she could almost understand what he said, but I’m pretty positive Mat is the only one who displays this ability. Is this because of his later fate of having the other memories in his head? As in, his thread in the Pattern is predisposed to speaking the old tongue because he will be able to consciously speak it later on? Or is his lineage different from the other Two River folks? Maybe the combination of his mother and father’s blood came together in him and allowed the old blood to come through stronger?//
Well… I guess just brace yourself, Sylas, because if there is one thing that the Wheel of Time is overflowing with, it’s the two genders constantly complaining about over-generalizations of the other.
@9:
That’s not gender equality. That’s gender parity.
You want to talk about gender dynamics, I’m going to echo @@.-@.
Look at a situation that’s going on. Mentally gender flip the characters. Then you might see the message Jordan is conveying.
His world has a lot of very interesting, and very intentional, examinations of gendered societies (and our societies treatment of gender). This is intentional.
Very intentional.
@19 – When I highlight the text on my iPad, no, I still cannot read it, anymore than I can read whited-out text. When I highlight the text on my desktop computer, then I can read it, just the same as I can whited-out text. So, from my point of view, the result of your method of hiding text is exactly the same as whiting out.
@@@@@ 20
Regarding Matt // don’t forget he’s ta’veren. Perhaps the Wheel required that he have a better grasp of the Old Tongue.//
@20:
We don’t know. General consensus among the old RASFW-RJ community was that the whole “old blood” thing got abandoned in favor of the Snakes and Foxes plotline. Mat was going to get all those memories, and the original mechanism was going to be the old blood, and at some point, RJ decided that the Snakes and the Foxes were cooler, and it gave him a way to have Moiraine “die” and then come back to life, so he ran with it and sort of abandoned the other way Mat was going to get those memories.
@21:
Yes, much like the real world that I grew up in and still live in.
So there’s like no chance any of us are going to remember this line come //Fires of Heaven//, right? A pity.
Perhaps I am odd but Suian’s anchor line didn’t bother me at all. Every person has a purpose, and Rand has one most of all. If you consider fulfilling your purpose of saving the entire world “being used”, that is a lack of maturity and compassion. As we know, Rand has compassion in spades, but he is still a teenager, and this whole conversation reminds us of that constantly. Upon reread, I definitely have more pity for him than I did the first time, but I still personally think he comes out of the Last Battle in a much better place than the rest of the population: three lovers still alive, 2 babies on the way, a handsome new body, the ability to light his tabac whenever he wants without a lighter. Like Anthony Pero, I was more surprised that she didn’t address his fear of being used by Aes Sedai specifically rather than being used in general.
@29 – I think it’s more to Anthony Pero’s point @18 – the sheer arrogance of Siuan Sanche and Aes Sedai in general. She (and almost all other Aes Sedai) just assume that they will control the Dragon Reborn, that they are the ones who will dictate his actions up until the Last Battle. That he will be “guided” by them in what he “needs” to do. No matter that none of them actually knows what the Last Battle will be or what he must do to win it.
from where I’m sitting Verin seems to be the only one who can really think outside of the box. And that is probably going to be a valuable thing, going forward
LOL!
Anthony @18, that was such a beautiful summarisation of how I also saw Lan in this scene. Thank you.
#4 nintindoomed, it took me a long time to figure out why the gender dynamics of WoT were such a constant gnat buzzing around my ears of discomfort and annoyance, but after I got it I loved it. It’s not “well done” in the sense that “this is how gender balance should be” but rather it’s a rubbing-your-hands-together-while-cackling level “well done” in how perfect a lot of the role reversal is to real world politics and society. Sure men still predominate at war and fighting, but honestly, it’s the female Aes Sedai pulling almost all of the political and social strings.
The entire series is a rather interesting thought exorcise for male readers who lack the experience to get a feel for what it can be like for women irl in many ways.
Heh, it was bound to happen but imo Sylas is finally wrong about more of his guesses this chapter than he is right. I’m obviously not going to point out which is which (because spoilers) but it adds an aura of authenticity to the re-read after a heck of a lot of very good and insightful comments.
Sadly, the one thing I will mention is that pointless conversation will come back and turn (almost) into pointless books.
I’ll also echo the others as far as gender parity / equality is concerned.I think the situation in Shienar actually shows that even in a country where men SHOULD have all the power (warrior society and all that) the women still maintain a high degree of control (both in function… the lady in charge of the castle… her title escapes me) and in territory (the women quarters where their word is law). I’d also argue that it makes perfect sense in the world Jordan creates where men were literally responsible for going mad and destroying the world and (some) women are the most powerful beings in the land.
As awesome as Nynaeve becomes, some character flaws are extremely off-putting especially in the first books. I honestly couldn’t stand her for the most parts when I first read the books. As I got older and as more books piled up with more insight I could better appreciate where she’s coming from but she can still be VERY annoying at times. I’ll echo Anthony Pero @18 in his description on how Lan handled everything, also keeping in mind he’s a 30(40?)+ man dealing with an 20 (ish) years old girl.
Lastly, Siuan represents (as it should) the towering confidence, self importance and self assurance of the Aes Sedai. How justified it is (especially when it comes to Rand and Co.), remains to be seen :) One thing (among many) that I like about Moiraine is that her belief in the Pattern allows her to side step those character flaws. She is still supremely confident and cunning, but she is also willing to adapt and realizes (or will come to realize) that her best plans are but straws in the wind as far as the Pattern is concerned.
@34 VladZ
Regarding Siuane embodying basically all the flaws the White Tower has in that exchange, I agree fully // later on a character remarks that Elaida is blind to any possibility or reality beyond her own perception and vision; but that even more problematic and frightening is the frequency with which her bull-headed bludgeoning style of leaders succeeds in changing the narrative to force others to see things her way as well. And reality be damned. I think that it’s a fantastic analogy for the Aes Sedai as a whole at this point. Their blindness to any possibility outside of their consideration is astounding, but not nearly as astounding as their consistant ability to force facts to conform to their narrative, and the eventual reckoning that is unavoidable from that kind of ignorance of the reality of life for most people in Randland.//
There is so much in this one chapter and it brings out so much of our own understanding of culture and differences…
Thanks @10 for expressing my thoughts for me. I spent most of my day working on it, interspersed with working for a living. Then refreshed for new comments and decided your comment way more concise than mine.
Thanks Mr. Pero… you always see things very clearly… He just gave away his kingdom to the women he loves… In Nynaeve’s mind, she’ been jilted by him (in the last book)…but really she doesn’t know what she asked of him at the time… Being foresworn in the borderlands might be a death sentence for honor’s sake…Lan has decided that she is more important than duty…. a very high and lofty perch that is to him.
As far as the Aes Sedai and warders…\\ I’m not convinced any of them care about their indentured servant meat shields. Much later in the books the warders seem to be more important to a few named Aes Sedai\\
DAMN, the comments on this installment are BRILLIANT and really, really penetrating!
The point has been made, but it’s interesting to see Silas actually missing a point – after he’s caught so many that I missed for so long. “Divisional duties and societal roles tend to fall along old-fashioned gender lines that Western readers would find familiar” seems starkly at odds with a world where all-female Aes Sedai hold the political power!
Lan/Nynaeve, Rand/Egwene are beatifically contrasted relationships and parting!
Being “born into a role” makes me think of what “royalty” and “nobility” really SHOULD be: not simply holdiing privilege, but also obligation. Joseph Campbell points out in his analysis of myth that Kings are NOT private individuals: their life if NOT their own, but belongs to their subjects. Plato’s “philosopher kings” were selected very young for their potential, then FORCED to rule – yes, their needs were taken care of, but they had no choice about their life’s role, both its attractive and its onerous features.
In regards to gender dynamics, specifically with the borderlands and the two rivers, there seems to be this underlying belief that women should be protected, not because they are weaker, but because woman are more important and better than men … that in truth men are more corrupt and base than woman and indeed more disposable. It is a subtle consequence of men going insane and breaking the world I think.
Sigh… I didn’t make it clear that it seams to me that\\ Aes Sedai see men as tools… warders being the best tools and other men lesser tools…\\ Which is why Rand took that meeting with the Aes Sedai so well….
@@@@@anthony Pero(#18)
Of course, it ultimately won’t, but Sylas doesn’t have a way of knowing that yet. //Lan// might, though, as I’ve always found it to be //not really much of a stretch at all that Malkier can and will be reclaimed once Tarmon Gai’don is won.// The problem is, he’s so convinced himself that there is no hope for him, that he refuses to accept any signs that there might be.
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@@@@@(#22)
What’s the difference again, exactly?
@Erunion (#23)
I’m wondering if your remarkably frequent use of the word ‘intentional’ in these 2 paragraphs was, well…. intentional :D If it was, then I enthusiastically applaud you for it.
@Nixorbo (#28)
I have a decently good memory for these sorts of things, so there is a non-zero percent chance that I might. We’ll see when the time comes if I still remember that line.
@Evelina (#29)
Especially in The Wheel of Time, of course, where things like Patterns and ta’veren exist.
@dashardie (#30)
@VladZ (#34)
@Tyler(#35)
All of what you guys have said is true. On the other hand, it is good to remember that there are very good reasons (which I won’t go into due to Spoilers) that, for close to 3000 years (well…. maybe 2500 at the very least), these assumptions by the Aes Sedai were completely justified. It’s just that the world is rapidly changing, and situations are occurring and events happening that haven’t occurred in almost 3000 years, so all the assumptions the Aes Sedai have lived (and ruled) by over the last 2,5 – 3 millennia have suddenly ceased being valid. Don’t get me wrong, the Aes Sedai are still completely and disastrously off the mark here, but at the same time I can fully understand that letting go of (former) truths about the world that have held for literal millennia might just be a tiny bit hard to do. So I’m willing to give the Aes Sedai some slack for their stupidity, is what I’m saying.
I always found the parting between Lan and Nynaeve to be one of the best scenes in the book. Nynaeve has a way of overreacting to anything she perceives to be a personal slight to herself. She learned that response as a self defense mechanism when she was forced into an authority position over her elders at a young age and had to maintain it through sheer force of personality, but it isn’t serving her well in this exchange with Lan. Her all or nothing approach doesn’t work for their situation. They can’t have all (at least right now) but Lan won’t allow her to stomp her foot and insist that that means they must have “nothing.” It’s a hard truth, but isn’t it better to acknowledge that truth than let her talk herself into believing he doesn’t care for her?
I’m also interested in what Sylas will think of Rand’s continued character development // I think in the third book, and then still over the next several, Rand’s personality gets subsumed in his mission. He becomes a “force” almost more than a character for a long time.//
And oh, the comparison of Sam and Perrin. // Not totally on the money there.//
@19ridolf67 (#36)
//Given what happens to an Aes Sedai when her Warder dies, this seems highly unlikely to me. And no, your later thought about them seeing their warders as mere tools doesn’t make more sense in that context either.//
@Faculty Guy(#37)
I wish I could do more than simply giving a “favourite”, because that is BEAUTIFUL. Seriously. And also so very true. So many people nowadays seem to forget that “noblesse oblige” is supposed to be a good thing; something that’s meant to aid ordinary citizens.
You mentioned the pacing of the book, and Rand finding out so soon that he was the dragon reborn. It is my understanding that the Wheel of Time series was initially sold to the publisher as a trilogy. That would have affected the pacing of the first couple of books, until Jordan knew that he could write more books.
@rhii (#45)
I disagree. It may not have been intentional on Nynaeve’s part, but the way she acted did get Lan to finally break and give her a symbol of his love and care for her. Which, essentially, is a small but oh-so-important concession on Lan’s part to potentially committing himself to a relationship. To me, Nynaeve’s all-or-nothing approach is exactly what Lan needs in his life.
Although…. Lan categorically refusing to bend to Nynaeve’s every whim is exactly what she needs in her life. Which would be why they work so well as a couple.
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@ALL
If my repeated postings came off as spam-y, I hereby apologize for that. But there was simply a lot I felt the need to respond to today, and I didn’t know of a good and easy-to-implement way to clearly delineate my responses to separate people, The dashed-line in this and my first comment took me several minutes to get right.
@37 and 47. Read Robin Hobb’s Farseer and Tawny Man series (first book in the first series is Assassin’s Apprentice) for several examplars on that very theme – it is what the entire series is all about.
@46/36 // The bond means an AS and her Warder cannot be indifferent to each other’s feelings and needs. AS are not cavalier about risking their Warders and Warders are fiercely protective of their AS for practical and selfish reasons but that isn’t the whole of it. We see a variety of personal relationships between AS and Warders; some are almost military, she is the officer and he her loyal subordinate; some of them are romantic, especially in the case of Greens; and some like Lan and Moiraine are partnerships – if not equal ones. Lan and Moiraine are both dedicated to fighting the Dark One in every way possible. They don’t always agree on tactics but they are as one on goals. There is also a certain amount of personal esteem, even affection between them though nothing resembling romance. Some Warders have a blind loyalty to their AS. Others have ideas of their own and will argue with her. There is a definite element of possessiveness involved on both sides ‘His’ Aes Sedai. ‘Her’ Warder(s). And the breaking of the bond is incredibly painful to both. Warders turn suicidal. Aes Sedai sink into a depression that can last for years. Crying yourself to sleep every night seems to be a completely normal response. Other Aes Sedai worry if a sister isn’t crying her eyes out periodically because there are much more dysfunctional ways to handle the loss – as we see. //
I don’t know how much I can say about gender dynamics amongst channelers without getting very spoiler-y, but suffice it to say it is fundamentally different than gender dynamics in other areas of life.
The only place we get gender equality being the Aiel – *snicker snicker* man I can’t wait to see the thoughts of this site and reader on the Aiel.
I must say I disagree though with the idea that there are not mental/psychological differences between men and women that are biological in nature. Sure they are different for each person in amount and most definitely some things are ingrained due to society (which can be bad) but that the differing levels of hormones don’t make a difference in psycology as well as physiology has always seemed scientifically suspect to me. I also find people who seem to put so much emphasis on lack of gender equality and identity politics talking about burning gender essentailism rather funny. Likely though the term has a meaning I am not familiar with and is not apparent simply from the definition of the words individually.
@@@@@(#22)
That goes a bit beyond the point I was trying to make and is a different argument. The point being is that this is not really a “Traditional Western Society Gender Roles”; or, rather, it is with a twist and a reversal.
I do agree with you about Suain & Mo. and the use of Rand as a ‘tool.’ You can see where the presumption comes from: Suain is basically the medieval Pope and used to her office wielding the most political power, and Moiraine has dedicated her life to finding the Dragon Reborn. But sheesh, they are going to have to learn some hard lessons.
I also think that Sylas is a bit presumptive in his assuming Rand understands or accepts the whole, “You’re the Dragon Reborn” thing.
VladZ @34: To be precise, Nynaeve was born in 974 and Lan in 953. The series starts in 998, so they were 23 or 24 and 44 or 45 at the beginning of the series.
@54
“I also think that Sylas is a bit presumptive in his assuming Rand understands or accepts the whole, “You’re the Dragon Reborn” thing.”
One thing that I think needs to be restated (and what makes Siuan’s declarations and attitude particularly hard for Rand to accept) is that being The Dragon Reborn suuucckkss! To Rand’s mind right now this isn’t Siuan telling him that he has a duty to the world or an unpleasant task to complete. To his mind this is her telling him that he is the reincarnation of the most evil man in the world, the one who destroyed the world and whose name is still used as curse and ill omen. If you want to name someone a darkfriend you scratch the Dragon’s Fang into their door. It’s a symbol of evil. In Siuan’s own words “Mark me, not all Aes Sedai feel the same. There are some here in Fal Dara who would strike you down if they knew a tenth of what you are, and feel no more remorse than for gutting a fish. But then, there are men who’ve no doubt laughed with you who would do the same, if they knew.”
This isn’t about Rand needing to buck up and accept his responsibility, at least not yet. This is telling Rand that he is arguably the most hated person in history and all the stuff about being duty bound to fight the Dark One is just shit icing on the shit cake.
//It’s why it’s so important that ANYONE who has success in actually reaching him on an emotional level are those who see him as Rand first and as the Dragon Reborn second//
The symbol of the Aes Sedai. Gender parity/equality. Balance of power. Central themes. I read these books noticing what I perceived as the balance and counterpoints that fill Randland.
I never get the complaints about gender dynamics. When Loial becomes worried (later on) about (spoilers, but I’m on my phone and can’t figure out how to hide them, sorry!) getting married, he complains that the women run the relationship, and Mat starts laughing, saying that his Da would never let that happen! Rand thinks slowly for a bit, and then comes to the conclusion that it IS the same for both cultures.
Mat, shocked, starts to correct Rand, and then Rand asks THE question: Can you remember your father ever doing something your mother REALLY didn’t want him to do? Mat is struck dumb as he realizes… no, no he has not.
I think some people focus too much the law only recognizing men and male heirs and somehow assume that women before 1960 never had any power. No, women have had a great deal of power and influence. What’s the saying? “Behind every great man, there’s a great woman”? It’s just the history books don’t really record the nights Martha had to console George Washington because George woke up from a nightmare where he lost his whole command. Nor do they record the counsel Bess Truman gave Harry about dropping the Atomic Bombs on Japan. Women just don’t get the spotlight because their actions tend to be more subtle than killing 100,000 enemy soldiers. But that doesn’t mean they were never important or powerful. Cleopatra ensnared Julius Caesar and Mark Antony and had them take her empire back from her brother. Augustus declared war on Antony because his sister asked him too. Two women changed Rome from a Republic to an Empire that dominated the Mediterranean for 1000 years.
The guards might be in the women’s wing all the time. The city is under near-constant threat of giant man-eating beasts, after all. What of it? It’s probably better for them to be there and not needed than to not be there and be needed.
Also, a lot of people focus on women being housewives. Yeah, you don’t want the person who takes nine months to grow the next generation out on the battlefield, especially when the first few months don’t always show. It’s perfectly fine for the guy to be out there though; his job is done in 20 seconds. There are female soldiers and female generals later on, but that’s from a completely different nation who controls an absolutely massive continent. They can absorb more losses of birthing age females than, say, a tiny place like Shienar can.
But just because the women aren’t out fighting doesn’t mean they can’t be tailors, bankers, weavers, dyers, various merchants, and the like. They are holding the home front while the boys are out fighting, after all.
As for the crazy gender dynamics… Oh boy. Just wait until New Spring.
@jadis666:
The best way that I can illustrate the difference between parity and equality is to use a programmatical PHP* expression:
When evaluating ( 0 == FALSE ), it evaluates to TRUE. But obviously, 0 is not the same as FALSE in all situations. It is fundamentally different. 0 is a numerical expression, and false is a boolean value.
Whereas the expression ( 0 === FALSE ) will evaluate to FALSE, because this comparison operator requires the two values to be the same TYPE. Since they are different TYPES, the statement is false.
This is what I mean when I point out the difference between gender parity and gender equality (please note that the use of the word equality is actually INCORRECT, mathematically, it just the best way to use the english language to explain it).
Gender parity means that different genders have the same level of influence in society. None are considered more important than the other when taken as a whole. Gender equality means that genders have the same influence. Not the same level of influence. In other words, there are no gender roles.
Lets use the example given in Shienar. Women control the Keep and the Women’s Quarters, men control the army and the soldiering, etc. Those achieve a tension, a balance, among the two genders presented in Shienar. That’s parity. Gender equality, in this instance, would mean that women were soldiers as well, and men were involved in running the keep, and there would be no cultural obstacles to either women joining the army or rising in its ranks. That would be equality. I’ll leave it as an exercise to the reader to determine if such equality is even possible in a place and time like Shienar, or if parity is the best that can be achieved in an egalitarian society.
*Edit: Corrected for the benefit of Rombobjörn@75 in acknowledgement of the fact that PHP isn’t a real programming language ;P
@58 Rev – You’re going to have a hard time selling the idea that there’s always been secret gender parity. Mostly, because as a woman who works full time, and till manages to do the bulk of the childcare, the bulk of the housework, and the bulk of all the other family obligations, I ain’t buying….
@49 jadis666 – your description of how Lan and Nynaeve work so well together is spot on. I am still not totally with you on your first point, because I still think Nynaeve handled that about as badly as it could be handled, and she was just fortunate than Lan actually was the right partner for her because he responded well. I love Nynaeve, she is my #1 favorite character, mostly because I understand her. But I don’t think she was right this time.
RJ’s intention was to reverse gender roles, but he didn’t always succeed. The Two Rivers especially are a lot like traditional Western society. There are some cultures we meet later that are different, but at this point we haven’t really seen much of them yet.
@@@@@ 58, 60 – Certainly women can still have influence even in the most repressive societies; there will always be some men who are willing to listen to them (often romantic partners, family members, etc.). Of course, that means that to be a woman of influence, you have to know the right people. You can’t become an outstanding soldier, banker, [insert other occupation here] in your own right and gain power, you must marry, become mistress to, befriend, or be related to someone who has the power. It makes things more difficult, and, as you rightly pointed out, you don’t get any recognition and have to be content to influence behind the scenes. That is not satisfying for many women, and I personally don’t think it’s gender parity either.
That said, many women in many WoT societies have outright power. As other have noted, soldiering is not the only way to be powerful.
@@@@@60 – Perhaps you need to better housebreak your partner, as the Shienaran ladies would say. ;) Sorry, I couldn’t resist!
@46/51. Clearly my comment was unclear at best and misleading at worst… It is interesting that your comments arrive from different points of view… One about consequences of death and the other a much more romanticized view of the bond… I guess the question becomes… \\How much do the men (or women) know about the bond, before they become warders? Do they know they are losing their autonomy? You both brought up excellent points that I had forgotten, but I definitely disagree with the partnership idea between Lan and Moraine…In the first three books he breaks rank once and disobeys her and she lets me know about it. He’s joined her mission… but it isn’t his mission… And she is definitely in charge. We know of only one character that can not be compelled via the bond… So if over your head you know that when push comes to shove, you can’t resist, why fight at all against it. Better to act like it was a great idea in the first place… We know Moraine is one of the better Aes Sedai… she’s not Allanna… but she does compel Lan once… by setting his bond to transfer…. he had no choice… and he had to find his new Aes Sedai immediately. There are many parallels to the Sul’dam and Damane relationship… it is turned sideways… the one with power is on the lease which is the opposite of the bond… the Aes Sedai don’t beat their warder into submission… but they don’t have to… I expect some blow back from that… :) Jadis is right that they don’t want their warders to die because of the after effects… But until we get to much later in the series, they are highly trained body guards… when strong relationships precede the bonding, It hits you right in the feels… but we don’t see that until book 6 or 7? maybe… they start to run together at some point… lol.\\
@63 // I think that Aes Sedai and most if not all Warder candidates think they know what they’re getting into, but I think the reality surprises them all. having another person always in your mind is a heck of a thing to live with. Later in the series Gawyn reflects the one person an Aes Sedai can never fool about her state of mind is her Warder. He knows if she’s upset, angry, insecure, unhappy, etc. And she knows when he is. One way or another you must deal with another person’s emotions as well as your own. And while the AS certainly has the advantage in many ways she still has to live with the man in her mind and if she upsets him too much it’s going to be unpleasant for her too.
There is no question but Moiraine violates Lan’s dignity and his autonomy but she’s doing it to save his life. She knows she’s going to die and she wants him to live. She even wants him to be happy with Nynaeve which is why I say there’s some affection there. Alanna hates watching good men die. Her methods are problematic to say the least but she is trying to save lives //
A thought about “the old blood” and what that might mean, really…I’d say that yes, it refers to an isolated genetic pool where recessive traits like channeling (and six-fingered hands ;) would have a chance to proliferate. But…(mild spoiler)…practically speaking, based on the number and power of channelers we get from the Two Rivers “old blood” and the Aiel “ancient blood”, it seems to mean an isolated area where the Red Ajah haven’t been culling the ability to channel out of humanity for the last 3000 years!
No idea why “the old blood” ability to channel also leads to people like Egwene and Mat spouting bits of the Old Tongue every now and then…
@26 – “General consensus among the old RASFW-RJ community” – Wow, so what does that mean? you see we all praise RJ for his foreshadowing ability his worldbuilding character dynamics and so on, but to actually give us a whole built up plot, and then leave it unresolved? That’s hard to swallow, I mean if that is what happened, is it easy for you to reread, knowing that all those parts about the hero’s origins and the 2 river’s origins are utterly pointless besides giving us a reason why all the badass characters are from one village? How is that for reread material? That’s a dissapintment. Even if he wanted to change Mat’s plot, he had enough, really enough books to somehow divert the plot of old blood without leaving it all open…
@34 – “eh, it was bound to happen but imo Sylas is finally wrong about more of his guesses this chapter than he is right.”
I didn’t wait for it to happen, but once it did it felt… weird. Now I know why, he really was more wrong then right…
Hey, I just found out about the “favorite this” option. Only on this post I favored 4 posts… So is it a “thing” here?
@66:
I dunno, again, that is sort of what some old timers like myself think. Its not a documented fact, unlike the pivot on // Taimandred, which is most definitely documented now, and people who have seen RJs notes have taken pictures of them and posted them on the internet. RJ pivoted on Taim being Demandred and changed his mind. //, so take it with a grain of salt.
But, that sort of thing happens all the time. I don’t see how it destroys all the foreshadowing. There is plenty that didn’t change in there. And RJ was doing something that had basically never been done before, this super long format single narrative. By the time The Eye of the World came out, the plan was for six books, so we know that lots of cool new ideas came to him and he added them in, that’s how the story got to be as long as it is. This is just one of those things.
yeah well I didn’t say that it “destroys all the foreshadowing” , just that it leaves or might leave a bad taste in my beloved series that’s all.
@69:
Well, its not perfect, and Taimendred pissed me off, mostly because as a teenager reading the series, its the only thing I ever caught on to, lol, and he went and changed it on me! But its still the best thing I’ve ever read.
And maybe in a previous (or future) turning of the Wheel, the “old blood” actually did make a friend of the Dragon Reborn into the most bad-ass battle lord ever, and this was merely an “echo.”
Many of the truths we cling to depend upon our own point of view ;)
All I can say is best of luck once you hit Knife of Dreams… that’s as far as i made twice in the last decade or so when trying to get through this series. Both times i was so wrapped up in the story, with the second reading thinking to myself ‘wow, how could i have never finished this series, its awesome!’ Well…. just lost interest both times as KoD got soooo boring… its a shame because this series started off so strongly and then just petered out.
@71:
Huh, that’s a new take for me. I hear that a lot for Crossroads of Twilight, but most fans consider Knife of Dreams a return to form for the series, taut and well-paced, with lots and lots of payoffs.
Well Anthony, i believe you hit the mark, CoT was prob what discouraged me as i didn’t get very far in KoD…
73. Brent
I would encourage you to go back. KoD moved the plot forward considerably and the last three books by Brandon Sanderson were great.
Anthony Pero (#59) exposes himself as a PHP coder with little knowledge of other programming languages :-Þ
Few other programming languages have this distinction between two comparison operators. Python has it, except that you’d write “is” instead of “===”. In C there is no equivalent to PHP’s “===”, and “false” is just another word for 0 so the compiler would read the comparison as “0 == 0”. In strongly typed languages such as Ada, comparing different types like in “0 = False” is a compilation error. And in Scheme you’d write “(= 0 #f)”, which would get you a type error.
May I suggest that you learn a few different programming languages? It will widen your views and make you a better programmer.
Regarding your actual point, I think your explanation of parity and equality was perfectly fine without the diversion into programming. The way a particular language handles type conversions isn’t a good analogy for gender equality.
Brent @73: I heartily agree with @72 and @74: KoD was the best book since at least LoC, in my opinion. In particular, Egwene‘s big chapter (Honey in the Tea) is my favorite chapter in the entire series. (Not the best chapter—that honor goes to a two-chapter sequence in TSR; re-readers know exactly which ones I’m referring to—but the one I most enjoy re-reading.)
76.76. bad_platypus // The Ancestatron 5000!!!! // That is, hands down, my favorite part of my favorite series. So F’n great!!
@71 + @72 – heh, and here I thought that path of daggers was the low point of the series.
@76 – Where’s Leigh and her articles about the best chapters and so *sigh*
@75:
Guilty. Of course, I’m not a programmer at all. I’m a Front End Developer. But I disagree, I think expression types, especially as they are handled in PHP, are an extremely valid way to look at genders. But that may also reveal my predisposition on this subject, which is something I generally try to avoid, lol.
Edit: I updated @59 for you, lol.
Thanks Jason 74 and Platypus 76, you’ve encouraged to give it another go.. much appreciated!
I love Verin’s interjection. Regardless of its intent or implications, its actual content is exactly what I would have said in response to ”A bird cannot teach a fish to fly and a fish cannot teach a bird to swim.” It’s literally the mental response I began to make when Siuan said that, before Verin spoke. As a natural-history nerd/educator, I can’t help myself.
@@@@@[Anthony Pero] (#59)
Well, the first thing this shows, is that one of the most important aspects of any debate, is to begin by establishing and agreeing upon definitions. Because, contrary to popular belief, definitions are actually not objective at all, as just about everybody has a slightly different one for just about every term imaginable. And people who use a different definition than the one you do are usually not wrong; they just simply have a different definition than you do. Although, of course, you don’t have to define absolutely every term; just the ones where one might reasonably suspect either the definition to be highly contentious in general, or the definition you’re using to be highly contentious, and also probably the ones that are rarely used. “Gender Parity” is very obviously an example of that last one, and “Gender Equality” seems to be a strong candidate for at least one of the other two.
So, let me start by saying that your definition of “Gender Equality” is definitely not my own. How I would define “Gender Equality” is what you define as “Gender Parity”. The closest term for what you describe as “Gender Equality” that I think fits it in any way would be “Gender Dissolvement”: the dissolving of the genders into a featureless soup.
The other thing is that, if we follow your definition, “Gender Equality” is absolutely impossible. Sylas also indicated in his post how he feels that gender-essentialism is basically nonsense. And here’s the thing: I completely understand why he feels that way! I mean, Sylas is transgender. The idea that there is some sort of Biological, absolute, essence to gender roles and gender identity basically goes (at least, I would imagine it would) against just about his entire life’s experience! So that the very concept of gender-essentialism would be unacceptable to him is, quite frankly, the most obvious thing in the world. And for very personal reasons, too, which are often among the most valid to hold a position that is at least partially subjective.
But, I have a similar dog in this race, except that mine is the exact opposite one. I’m Autistic. More specifically, an Autistic man. I have often held that one of the ways to describe being Autistic for men, is that they have an extremely strong and unwavering sense of their male gender. For me, that is certainly the case, and from what I can tell without actually being them it is also the case for many (actually, pretty much all) Autistic boys and men that I know. What I’m saying here is: to me, from my life’s experiences, gender-essentialism is the most natural thing in the world. By the way, for reasons similar such as these, @@@@@[Rombobjörn]’s (#75) assertion that programming wasn’t the right way to explain what you meant was completely untrue, at least in this particular case. I’m a Computer Scientist by trade, so using programming (or pseudo-programming, if you insist) to explain stuff is the perfect way to explain stuff to me.
But ultimately, we have to look at the Science on this issue. And it just so happens that it backs up my stance here, the stance that gender-essentialism is very much real, for the majority of people at least. For example, we can look at public school systems in the UK and in Western Europe. During the 3rd quarter of the 20th Century, and possibly a few years into the 4th, the method of educating children in primary and secondary school was with more direct and ~ shall we say? ~ more “basic” teaching techniques. You know… Doing sums. Learning idiom. Writing out words or sentences dictated by the teacher. Reciting historical dates, numbers, events and facts. Pointing out countries or other geographical features on a map. Doing some research and writing an essay about it. That sort of thing. Very individualistic and straight to the point. Now, it turns out that boys performed significantly better than girls when working with these methods. Partly to combat that, and partly because other things were held to be important to teach our children than what was previously held important (although the increase in the number / portion of women in decision-making positions undoubtedly was at least partially what created that shift in focus), this method of teaching was given significantly less prominence, and the core method of teaching was now to be to have students to projects in groups to learn what needs to be learned that way. This was, and still is, especially true in secondary school. This method, it turned out, worked a lot better for girls than it did for boys. This is why, today, many ideas are tossed around about how to make an Education system that works about equally well for everybody, and is more tailored to the individual needs of each student, instead of having a one-size-fits-all method that either favours some people heavily over others, or doesn’t work well for any student at all. An idea I personally like is to have several options available in all schools when it comes to the method students are to be taught — for example “basic” techniques as one possible method, and cooperation on projects as another — so that students, with the help of teachers and parents of course, can choose the option that works best for them.
My point here being: it is undeniable fact, from the last 50-70 years or so of history, that there are intrinsic differences between boys and girls / men and women. Thus, what you define as “Gender Equality” is absolutely and utterly impossible to ever happen. But that is also the reason why I vehemently object to that definition of “Gender Equality”. In our world (much like in the world of The Wheel of Time really), there are clear distinctions between the male and female genders, distinctions that cannot be abolished by Cultural or any other means. But that doesn’t mean that men and women aren’t equal. Because they are. I know that the phrase “Equal, but not the same” is often used by bigots when they really mean “Not the same, and not equal either” (the ‘not equal’ part flowing, for the idiotic bigots, directly from the ‘not the same’ part), but in many cases it is actually a very true principle, and very important for those of us that fight for Social change, and more specifically for Social equality between different groups in Society. You don’t have to treat different people, or different groups of people, identically to treat them equally.
@82:
Um, the specific example I gave of gender equality was this:
I would completely agree that there are intrinsic differences between genders on aggregate, but I would disagree that those differences on aggregate apply to every single individual in a particular gender. Therefore, I would highly disagree that societies should present cultural obstacles to qualified individuals performing in any role, regardless of gender. And those cultural obstacles exist, both in the Wheel of Time, and in real life. Gender Equality is about removing those obstacles.
The glass ceiling is real. The pay ceiling is real. A qualified man is more likely to be promoted to that VP position than a woman with the exact same qualifications, because he will be perceived as more qualified whether he is or isn’t. A female nurse is more likely to be promoted to Charge Nurse than a male nurse with the exact same qualifications. Men who stay home with the children and raise them while their wife goes to work and support the family financially are subjected to unbelievable amounts of scorn, and those wives are looked at askance and blamed when their husbands are unhappy, in spite of the fact that he may be more nurturing than she is, and she may be able to do jobs that make more money than he is qualified for. That’s gender inequality. Its taking what may be true on a macro level about a gender group, and applying it to decision-making regarding an individual within that group for whom the stereotypes just don’t apply.
I don’t think that you would disagree with what I just said, so I think that you misunderstood me, or I didn’t explain myself well enough. Hopefully this post clears that up.
I wish we would stop confusing sex with gender. Sex is an objectively observable biological fact. Gender is a social construct of behavior appropriate for members of the biological sex. Being social gender is fluid and need not line up with biology.
The different learning methods don’t necessarily correspond to genders. I am a woman and prefer your “male” learning method. Just because gender stereotypes associate social with female and scientific with male doesn’t mean that applies to all individuals. You happen to fit into the role people expect of you, but not everybody is that lucky.
In computer programming I associate parity with parity bits, not strictness of comparison operators.
@@@@@ 83 – I think you hit the nail on the head, at least for me. Anyone who spends any time at all with children can see that there are on aggregate natural differences between boys and girls, aside from their observable sex organs. jadis666 pointed this out with the learning example. Of course, what holds true for the majority is not true for everyone, and what you think is true about yourself may not be so. For example, my husband is much more patient than I am and enjoys group learning; I despise group learning and prefer to complete tasks on my own (I am a woman). We always thought there was a good chance he would stay home with the kids after we had them. The kids arrived, and it turned out I have a ton of patience with our children, while he has very little. When our second child was born, he was promoted at work and I was passed over for a promotion because my boss thought I wouldn’t want to advance my career while raising young children and because she thought my maternity leave fell at a very bad time; thus, our previously equal economic earnings became unequal. Thus, I was the one who ended up leaving the workforce to stay home. I am happy with the decision, and it has worked well for our family, but I don’t love that we were pushed that way so strongly by our employers. These pressures on families are the ones that people often ignore when they talk about how everyone can be equal now.
One of the things I love about WoT is the way it explores gender, family structure, etc. Much of it seems odd and some of it seems outright insane, but it is always an interesting thought experiment.
If only society at large could have this type of discussion we could solve most of the world’s problems.
This always sounded backwards to me. It would make more sense to say that a bird cannot teach a fish to swim, since that’s really what the fish needs to learn. Rand doesn’t need to learn how to channel saidar, after all.
@65: Channeling isn’t genetic. RJ said it’s bound to the souls that are reborn. In the story, when Nyneave learns that // Talaans mother and aunt are strong channelers, she reflects how seldom that occurs. There are mothers and daughters as novices in Salidar, but they take in about a thousand women, that’s just statistics. The theory that gentling culled the ability is just that. People in Randland often are stupid from a modern view (maybe the result of RJ trying to show a pre-rational society?), but not in all regards. That issue will have pulled the interest of at least a few browns and blues, if they had found something, it wouldn’t be a esoteric theory that’s just mentioned once.
The “old blood” specifically is people sometimes spouting the old tongue, and the tenacity of Manetheren seems to be genetic, too. //
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@66: // It’s not abandoned. Egwene didn’t use the old tongue a lot, and Mats use was blanketed by his memories. The main point about the “old blood” was the straight progenity from Manetheren, and the tenacity of the Two Rivers folk. Both are big parts of the story, the second kinda justifies that people from the Two Rivers are doing so good in the series, capable people who do things are needed and flourish in trying times. //
@71: You thought it got boring just when the (arguably) boring stretch ended? That’s kinda weird.
About the article:
That scene was really uncharacteristical for Egwene, and is a big stumbling block for the theory that her being an horrible person isn’t her fault, after all it happens after Fain had her in his hands.
Again, I don’t understand why Lan isn’t allowed to have agency in his relationships. Both aren’t willing to be pragmatic and open about it, doesn’t change the fact that Lan should have a say in it.
Verins interjection is absolutely something from a distracted brown, bringing up an idle, secondary, thought in this situation screams dreaming brown. And she only points out that the simile is weak, she doesn’t argue the fact. And later books show that the fact is right, sorry for all the people who want to force balance and parity, if it isn’t there in the first place.
The pattern doesn’t choose people based on their abilities or personalities, Ta’veren ignores both of these things. Stuff happens to these people, if they want to or not, if they could handle it by themselves or not. But it certainly is a good thing that at least this time around the Ta’veren are capable and determined. Also, I think all the main and secondary characters are Ta’veren, the mains so strongly that people can recognize it.
Note: message edited by moderator to white out spoilers.
The first paragraphs of @89 and @90 contain spoilers.
//We haven’t met Talaan yet and don’t know anything about Salidar or Mat’s memories.//
//The supergirls aren’t ta’veren, Siuan has the Talent to see ta’veren and would know if they were. It would make sense if they were ta’veren, too, but the author decided they aren’t. The justification is probably that they are so closely connected to Rand that his ta’veren pull influences their threads and therefore indirectly those interacting with the supergirls.//
Anthony @18 – I love your explanation. I think Nyneave and Lan are both muddling as best they can – and yeah, making a bit of a mess of it. But they are both strong willed, stubborn characters that, until now, have had very defined and clear missions for themselves, and this may in fact be the first time either of them has really ‘fallen’ for anybody.
And yes, the ring is VERY important and it means a LOT for Lan to be giving it to her.
Regarding gender dynamics – others have had a lot to say about this but yeah, I’ll just echo that some of this is VERY intentional (and not intended to be promoting it as the way the world should be – but just showing a logical possible way society would have evolved in a world where men broke the world and women were the only users of magic), and also you will see some different cultures with different dynamics. Flip flopping gender roles/power isn’t the same as gender equality, but I don’t think RJ intends us to see it that way. That said, the idea that there are two distinct and separate ‘forces’ IS pretty much baked into the metaphysics of this world.
Regarding the ongoing conversaton – I have a son with autism and have many traits in common with him (perhaps to a less diagnosable threshold). I also have tended to typically ‘masculine’ interests (never got along well with girls, in part because I struggled with subtle social cues), got a masters degree in microbiology, and now work in IT and enjoy programming. My husband is a stay at home dad, and there is absolutely no shame in that.
So I find these kinds of conversations very interesting, because what it means to be feminine is something I’ve grappled with over the years as both a mental and spiritual exercise. I think there ARE biological realities outside of the sex organs that can affect traits, but they are just generalities. Traditional roles do sometimes work for people (and there is a certain utilitarian/reductionist logic to things like, don’t but your childbearers on the battlefield – but do we really want to be utilitarian? Although it does make sense how a culture would develop that way over time but then codify that into some kind of ‘fact’) but for me I’ve found many other ways to live out what for me is an authentic femininity even if not in some culturally defined box that is very specific to its place and time and class.
Oh Verin :) I can’t wait to see your reaction about ten years from now to Verin :D
Sorry for the spoilers. I was thinking if I should white out the thing about later books and fishes and birds, and didn’t even think about the other ones :-/
//I forgot about Siuan and Nicola. I still think that they have enough happening to them personally that they themselves should be Ta’veren. Or Moiraine herself. Hearing Gitaras prophesy might be happenstance, but her life after that is definitely special and fortuitous.//
@92: I wouldn’t say VERY important. About as important as //Aludra meeting Mat, Masema being a nutter, Luc going to the Mountains of Dhoom, or similar, not VERY important as Verins, Moiraines, Cadsuanes, Mins work, or Rands Epiphany, or Mat refounding the Band, for example.//
BTW, other WoT topic.
SPOILER SPOILER (in link) The whited out bit is about the subject. It doesn’t reveal anything but I had a percentage there that may cause people to click even if they shouldn’t.
I just realised something in a zen moment, I may be wrong though. Some of you will probably disagree with me.
The link is to Dragonmount’s forum.
Edit1: I’m Tomp on Dragonmount
Edit2: It’s about a casting choice that’s got to be made for the tv-series
The spoiler warning is for those that haven’t passed the 60% mark on the series yet. It might be considered a minute spoiler for the rest but it really isn’t. If you’ve passed book 8 or 9 I can honestly say that I don’t really spoil anything at all. There are other comments on the linked page that spoils a lot though.
// It’s about Min’s importance in a tv series. I bet at least 90 % of you haven’t conidered this. //
https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/97915-the-wheel-of-time-will-be-adapted-as-a-tv-series/?page=20&tab=comments#comment-3909456
(If Tor finds it worthy they may use it, hehe)
@94: //Min is for another reason even more important. Rand struggles, that will be clear to everybody. He is young, he is dutiful, he grew up sheltered (just like the others from the Two Rivers, and to a lesser extent other characters). First he tries to run and hide, then he doesn’t believe, then he feels he has to do it, at whatever cost. Min is the only one who he feels is really on his side. He thinks Moiraine will manipulate him for her own goals (and even if she would’ve manipulated him for his destiny, she had to learn not to work against the pattern, so arguably he was right), Lan has his obligations, Tam can’t be near him, Egwene turns her back at him, Perrin and Mat keep their distance and have important things to do on their own. Elayne feels that her duties are more important than him (arguable, if hateful) and his task (insane), even Aviendha thinks her own things are more important. Others like Bashere follow him, but don’t stand by his side (speaking up, being able to make him understand, what have you). And even more importantly, added to giving him the feeling he is not alone, she keeps him relatively sane for as long as he is. He only really begins to fall after Semirhage breaks free, when she feels that she is a weakness for him, and he feels her pulling away.//
Agree on everything you’ve said about all the times the characters have had an impact on the story and characters. Especially on the significant character that you refer to.
My point was a recently discovered makro-view that I never considered until earlier today. I haven’t heard it talked about by anyone else either.
But of course the character have many significant moments that’s very hard to solve in other ways if that person isn’t there. (didn’t specify gender for several reasons)
@93 – I meant VERY important to Lan, emotionally – in what it represents to him. Although yes, it does have some minorly important plot relevant importance as well later on
@93:
That’s because Rand’s Ta’vereness started pulling them around as soon as he was born.
@20:
//Mat’s sisters are all prodigious Channeling talents, yes? The Old Blood manifests differently in different people, but clearly his family has a much higher concentration (perhaps even being descendants of a cadet branch of the royal line) than most.//
Ok, I’ll claim it.
Darn it, I missed it :) At the top it was saying 98 comments…
The hunny is rarely sighted, now. Long gone are the days of the double and triple hunny being a common sight.
Yeah, those were the days… It was great fun, Subwoofer would be sniffing around and pouncing like a ninja on the hunny.
I almost never got the hunny, because by the time I was able to comment, we were at 150.
For me it was often a matter of time zones- I’m plus 5 hours ahead to East Coast USA so, IIRC, Leigh’s re-read was posted around 5-6pm for me so I’d read it later that evening or night by which time for me too there’d be lots of comments.